Curse

SpyderArachnid · May 30, 2010, 03:37 PM // 15:37

What's a good Energy Management for a Mesmer?

Been trying different things out, but really having no luck with a good Energy Management build. I'm an Illusion Mesmer with nine in Fast Casting and Inspiration.

Any help would be appreciated

Bob_ftw · May 30, 2010, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Bot + power drain! ... oh wait

power drain if you have decent ping, or waste not want not, or elite lyssa's aura.

The Josip · May 30, 2010, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Drain Delusions. If you're illusion mesmer, your stats will be something like: 10 Inspiration, 16 Illusion, 10 FC.

Spend some time getting the most out of Drain Delusions, don't just spam it. Practice.

Lanier · May 30, 2010, 04:35 PM // 16:35

drain delusions is a pretty good one, especially for illusion builds cause there are several illusion hexes that give a benefit when they end. Make sure your inspiration is at 10 if you do use drain delusions. Power drain has a really good energy return and it doubles as an interupt adding some passive defense to your team. Drain enchantment is another fairly good option as it doesnt require the reflexes to use that power drain requires. If you are using arcane echo or conjure nightmare, auspicious incantation would work well.

ForgottenAccount · May 30, 2010, 04:52 PM // 16:52

I don't know that I'd recommend Lyssa's Aura as e-management unless you are running a lot of high-recharge spells or feeling very lazy. Lyssa's actually became relatively less useful, at least IMO, as a result of the changes to Fast Casting and reducing many spells' recharge times. The passive regen boost can't keep up with the much stronger energy pressure you're under if you want to be utilizing all your spells (plus it's an elite and easily strippable)...

Lanier · May 30, 2010, 05:05 PM // 17:05

iv actually found lyssa's aura to be very powerful when spamming several 10 energy spells like clumsiness... but still, I dont think its worth it at all considering the other energy management options available and the fact that its elite.

maxxfury · May 30, 2010, 05:10 PM // 17:10

If you run AP, then you can happily roll with AI or Ether sig

and never be low. Even without Ap, AI is has good returns

If not then you still have access to gole, tho its a little less prominent now that its not affected by the recharge boost the mes skills are..all the same still a usefull tool.

Drain delusions, is a very favorable skill, especially with all the aoe hexes mes has now that are cheap and spammable.

Pdrain/leech sig are also good if you ping isnt crap.

And if your running hexway, the necro's pve skill sig of corruption can be usefull.

Bristlebane · May 30, 2010, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Lyssa's Aura is not too bad. Sure you miss out on your elite, but on the other hand it allows you to spam 6-7 skills almost mindlessly, and you never have to wait for energy. And a caster without energy is not good for your team.

Dre · May 30, 2010, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Arcane Conundrum is pretty good if you can cast it on a large group

ac1inferno · May 31, 2010, 12:37 AM // 00:37

[[Auspicious Incantation] is used a lot. Otherwise, there's [[Power Drain], [[Drain Enchantment], [[Leech Signet], [[Drain Delusions], and [[Arcane Conodrum].

The Josip · May 31, 2010, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Lyssa's Aura is not a bad skill in itself. It just isn't worth using with the current state of mesmer elites, and overall buffs that mesmer got.

Lyssa's Aura will give you 12 energy every 9 seconds, at 11+ inspiration (provided it's not stripped). Not counting the cost of the skill itself (if you pre-buff).
Drain Delusions will give you 11 energy every 9 seconds (a bit less than 9sec actually), at 10+ Inspiration.

Drain Delusions isn't elite. It does require you to play skillfully because you need to cast and drain hexes properly. And if someone finds that too difficult and wants mindless gameplay - what on earth are you doing playing mesmer anyway.

If you're using Lyssa you're missing out on some great elite skills, and the fact that you can spam 7 other skills mindlessly doesn't mean anything if the build overall is weaker. If there is such a build where Lyssa makes it worth to have energy-gain elite - then I'd like to see such a build. I am not interested in theorycraft at all.

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AI+Ether Signet are of course great with AP build such as EVAS spam.

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Leech Signet isn't worth it. Stick to spells, so that Fast Casting has some effect.

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Power Drain and Arcane Conundrum are too situational, and will in practice give you much less benefit than theorycraft would convince you.

Ideally, Power Drain will give you 16 energy every 15 seconds while Drain Delusions will give 11 every 9 sec. This means that in ideal situation, Drain Delusions gives more. In practical, non theorycraft, situation, you will not be able to interrupt with PD on recharge, or you will miss for whatever reason (although you can "miss" with Drain Delusions too). Power Drain also interrupts, true, but with DD you can spam. With PD you have to babybit. If you're in the middle of casting some other skill - and our target starts casting a spell - you fail. DD also works on everyone and not just on casters.

All this doesn't make Power Drain a bad skill, but whenever I used it I never found it reliable. Personally, I favor Guilt over it.

If you're playing some interrupt build for fun, PD will be on the skillbar of course, but I don't rate interrupt builds highly. They are fun builds. Here, we're talking about good energy management build, and Drain Delusions is king.

There are always build-specific skills. I'll ask: energy management skill *for what build*.

Lanier · May 31, 2010, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Like all mesmer energy management really... the usefullness of drain delusions is situational. It really depends on what build you are running and in particular what hexes are present. Therefore, it may be a powerful energy management skill but it does require a spammable 5-energy hex that you dont mind losing in order to utilise.

Xenomortis · May 31, 2010, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Like all mesmer energy management really... the usefullness of drain delusions is situational. It really depends on what build you are running and in particular what hexes are present. Therefore, it may be a powerful energy management skill but it does require a spammable 5-energy hex that you dont mind losing in order to utilise.

Any hex that has a purpose that is not to end or directly kill the enemy can be drained when it's purpose has been fulfilled or the target is about to die.
Since a lot of Mesmer builds utilise hexes of some sort, it's usually a viable option.
Really, the only hexes it can't be used on are the ones that end when the enemy performs an action (e.g. Clumsiness, Mistrust, etc...) or in the case of Wastrel's Worry, doesn't.

FoxBat · May 31, 2010, 06:01 PM // 18:01

If you want a mesmer elite e-manage I would run energy drain, with fastcasting the return is about the same, but it's much less conditional. Main place I would do this is when focusing on a boss with natural resliance and want to spam wastrel's worry. (Heloooo abbadon) But that would be in addition to drain delusions... Tease is also quite nice against mobs, huge energy and aoe interrupt on a 10s recharge.

Drain delusions is awesome but as mentioned, it really depends. If you have to spend another 5e with a hex just to trigger it, that's not so great. Picking off AoE hexes however is usually very worth it, like pulling one panic off of a crowd, or better yet grabbing arcane conundrum for a huge 20+ enr boost. Also when building heroes, while they are good at identifying mesmer hexes, they won't be so choosy about which one to hit. Ripping wandering eye before it procs kinda sucks.

The Josip · May 31, 2010, 06:14 PM // 18:14

There's a difference between situation that you control, and the one you don't.

Last time in FoW I used:

Fragility
Ineptitude
Clumsiness
Wandering Eye
Signet of Clumsiness
Drain Delusions
Calculated Risk
X (I think I had Pain Inverter here, for eles, but it can be something else)

If there's another mesmer in the party you have more hexes (most likely) but have to be more careful on using DD.

That's not so situational. You spam spells, and have 2 hexes that you can drain without any problem, even recast if needed. One of them is cheap AoE hex.
It's safe to drain a hex from almost-dead target, much like using AP.

We can do theorycraft all day long, but in practice 15sec recharge interrupt isn't going to be used every 15sec, and 9sec drain can be used pretty much on recharge. Now, maybe someone is super good mesmer and is using Power Drain super godly, in which case I would be very interested in seeing the video - maybe I learn something.

OP stated this in the first post:

Quote:

I'm an Illusion Mesmer with nine in Fast Casting and Inspiration

Now, I don't know what kind of illusion build he/she is using, but best e-management for best illusion build is Drain Delusions.

If for some reason it's degen build, Drain Delusions wins again.

If for some reason it's interrupt build which uses Fragility and/or Conundrum, Power Drain should of course be used as one of the interrupts. Not because it's better for energy management, but because it fits the bar better. And can still be used along with Drain Delusions.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxbat

If you want a mesmer elite e-manage I would run energy drain

Well, E-drain gives you much less energy than Drain Delusions. E-Drain gives you 16 energy every 22 seconds, Drain Delusions gives 11 every 9 seconds.

Quote:

Drain delusions is awesome but as mentioned, it really depends. If you have to spend another 5e with a hex just to trigger it, that's not so great.

I agree it depends, and it depends on how good the build is.

If a build is good, drain delusions is awesome.
If a build is bad, drain delusions is pointless.

To make this less of a theorycraft, show me one good mesmer build where Drain Delusions will not be awesome and where it will "depend". I can't think of anything except EVAS spam build which uses Ether+AI+AP for e-gain anyway.

So, yeah, let's stop with all this theorycrafting that befell this forum and move in scientific waters. Build first, then let's see how and why DD 'depends'.

Xenomortis · May 31, 2010, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

If for some reason it's interrupt build which uses Fragility and/or Conundrum, Power Spike should of course be used as one of the interrupts. Not because it's better for energy management, but because it fits the bar better. And can still be used along with Drain Delusions.

Web of Disruption over Power Spike if there's no Domination Spec (12 Illusion, 9 in FC and Inspiration remember).
Web only has a slightly longer recharge than Spike and can also be drained for energy (the odds of the 2nd rupt landing are slim). It also interrupts any skill instead of just spells or chants.

The Josip · May 31, 2010, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Uh, sorry, apologies, I meant Power DRAIN which we were talking about. But yea you also reminded me of new buffed Web of Disruption.

But as I said, I'm just not a huge fan of interrupts in PvE (babysitting that is). They are fun in PvP, because I also know they annoy interrupted person (mesmer sadism hehe), but in PvE I look for optimal solutions and just did not so far find interrupts *as* useful as other (spam) options (with the exception of Psychic which I didn't try yet).

Lanier · May 31, 2010, 08:15 PM // 20:15

[QUOTE=The Josip;5160816]
To make this less of a theorycraft, show me one good mesmer build where Drain Delusions will not be awesome and where it will "depend".[QUOTE]

I guess I would consider my e-surge build to fall in the category of "one good mesmer build". After all, I wouldn't use it if I didnt think so.

E-Surge
Arcane Echo
Unnatural Signet
Spiritual Pain
Shatter delusions
Mind Wrack
By Ural's hammer
Auspicious Incantation/Power Drain (depending on the enemies in the area)

Quote:

Any hex that has a purpose that is not to end or directly kill the enemy can be drained when it's purpose has been fulfilled or the target is about to die.
Since a lot of Mesmer builds utilise hexes of some sort, it's usually a viable option.
Really, the only hexes it can't be used on are the ones that end when the enemy performs an action (e.g. Clumsiness, Mistrust, etc...) or in the case of Wastrel's Worry, doesn't.

The thing is, many of the popular hexes are ones like clumsiness or mistrust or WW or wandering eye that wouldnt activate if drained. In other cases, like in many of my domination builds, I would rather abuse the damage caused by shatter delusions. Once again, im not bashing drain delusions. The energy return from it is really nice and it combos well with AoE hexes and ones that have an effect that activates once the hex ends.

The Josip · May 31, 2010, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I guess I would consider my e-surge build to fall in the category of "one good mesmer build". After all, I wouldn't use it if I didnt think so.

E-Surge
Arcane Echo
Unnatural Signet
Spiritual Pain
Shatter delusions
Mind Wrack
By Ural's hammer
Auspicious Incantation/Power Drain (depending on the enemies in the area)

Ok I'll give two replies on this.

First, in this build, the way you put it, there's no place for Drain Delusions, and Power Drain is better. That's true.

Second reply would be this: I would personally put Empathy on that skillbar instead of Spiritual Pain, and Mistrust instead of Shatter, and would use DD. And I never liked By Ural's Hammer and would prefer Pain Inverter. But I accept argumentation that 25% damage increase for 10 out of 30 seconds makes Ural better than PI (doesn't seem to me but could be). I'm quite fond of instant kill that PI does though. As for Mistrust vs Shatter, it's 79 adjacent damage vs 142 nearby damage (for 5 more energy), and there's a hex (Mind Wrack) left for Drain Delusions.

Quote:

I would rather abuse the damage caused by shatter delusions

Well I would hardly call that damage abusive. 79 damage which can struck adjacent, and uses one mesmer hex.

Comparably, with Ineptitude illusion build I use, I spam
Clumsiness which is 97 damage, plus possibly adjacent, plus interrupts attack (passive heal), doesn't require hex;
Signet of Clumsiness, which costs no energy, 63 damage, possible adjacent, rare knockdown, requires no hex but requires attacking;
Wandering Eye, 115 damage, nearby range;
and of course Ineptitude 142 damage, adjacent, plus permanent blindness

FireWhale · May 31, 2010, 10:37 PM // 22:37

I think you're forgetting, The Josip, that drain delusions is a semi-two-slot energy management skill. If you don't have an cheap, easy to apply hex, it's going to cost you two slots. For example, the fragility in your build serves very little purpose except to act as a disposable hex.

Also, you seem to be falling into the very unappealing hole of "my way is the only acceptable way". Your build doesn't deal with spell casters. at all.